Comments on: Funding the transit system we want today… with 2006’s tax rate http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate Toronto's new weekly city magazine Sat, 25 May 2013 12:17:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Dave http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-45878 Dave Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:45:17 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-45878 The feds need to come up with more money for TTC, if only to reduce the pollution caused by gridlock. The Senators ( the politician ones, not the hockey team) should have transit tax applied to their salaries and pensions ( say 20%) that should provide enought cash to build a subway line. The Province needs to spend more on transit and less on making mistakes that defy logic. This is not just the Liberals but all 3 parties. The TTC needs to look after Toronto first and not the 905 folks who do not contribute their fair share to its operation. Large corporate employers need to pay a transit tax, seems most people work for them and their profits are the highest. Take away the politicians cars and make them take public transit like the rest of us. All the governments need to quit making claims of funding transit and then backing out. If we as Toronto tax payers didn't have to foot the legal bills of our questionable Mayor maybe we would have more money for transit as well. The feds need to come up with more money for TTC, if only to reduce the pollution caused by gridlock. The Senators ( the politician ones, not the hockey team) should have transit tax applied to their salaries and pensions ( say 20%) that should provide enought cash to build a subway line.
The Province needs to spend more on transit and less on making mistakes that defy logic. This is not just the Liberals but all 3 parties.
The TTC needs to look after Toronto first and not the 905 folks who do not contribute their fair share to its operation.
Large corporate employers need to pay a transit tax, seems most people work for them and their profits are the highest.
Take away the politicians cars and make them take public transit like the rest of us.
All the governments need to quit making claims of funding transit and then backing out.
If we as Toronto tax payers didn’t have to foot the legal bills of our questionable Mayor maybe we would have more money for transit as well.

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]]> By: Dave http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-45875 Dave Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:09:25 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-45875 Good idea, but h ow do you make them pay? Good idea, but h
ow do you make them pay?

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]]> By: Martin http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-45750 Martin Mon, 04 Mar 2013 03:36:44 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-45750 Transport Futures has been answering "the question no one wanted to contemplate" for almost 5 years. Since 2008, we've held more than a dozen conferences, seminars and community roundtables featuring over 55 international experts and attended by more than 1,000 people. We'll continue the conversation on April 8 with our Mobility Funding Symposium. See http://www.transportfutures.ca/funding for details. Transport Futures has been answering “the question no one wanted to contemplate” for almost 5 years. Since 2008, we’ve held more than a dozen conferences, seminars and community roundtables featuring over 55 international experts and attended by more than 1,000 people. We’ll continue the conversation on April 8 with our Mobility Funding Symposium. See http://www.transportfutures.ca/funding for details.

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]]> By: Ches http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44335 Ches Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:58:53 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44335 Danny, the people from outside Toronto who ride the TTC pay a fare like everyone else! i know the argument on property tax is often brought up, but unlike the other transit system being discussed, approx. 75% of TTC intake is from those fares; it is very under subsidized. otherwise i would agree with you. now, when speaking about increasing the revenue via regional sales tax, road tolls, etc., then all shoppers and drivers in the region will have to contribute and that's how it should be. Danny, the people from outside Toronto who ride the TTC pay a fare like everyone else! i know the argument on property tax is often brought up, but unlike the other transit system being discussed, approx. 75% of TTC intake is from those fares; it is very under subsidized. otherwise i would agree with you.

now, when speaking about increasing the revenue via regional sales tax, road tolls, etc., then all shoppers and drivers in the region will have to contribute and that’s how it should be.

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]]> By: MJA http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44227 MJA Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:03:50 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44227 It's been my experience that people who advocate for fare zones tend not to understand how finance works. Very, very few parts of the TTC ever come close to profitability. We're basically only talking about the subway lines, a few extremely busy streetcar lines, and shuttle buses. (The Airport Rocket, the York University Rocket, etc: routes with almost no stops where virtually every passenger is riding from terminal to terminal.) The most expensive part of the TTC, conversely, is those buses which have to stop every two blocks and run half-full and take forever to get anywhere. It's not an efficient use of fuel or staff resources, and such a route requires just as much investment in maintenance and infrastructure as one which could be carrying a full load of passengers a much greater distance. If you want the TTC to be cost-effective, you actually want to strongly incentivize higher-order transport. You don't want passengers transferring from bus to bus to bus (or only riding a bus two stops): you want as many passengers as possible on subways, streetcars, LRT, BRT and express buses, and as few as possible on local routes. As a result, counter-intuitively, systems which encourage short trips actually underperform financially (all those half-full buses stopping every block and a half...), while systems which encourage longer-distance trips (provided this distance is travelled on higher-order transit) do better. Fare zones and paying per kilometre actually create perverse incentives. If anything, you should be paying MORE for the convenience of only needing to travel two blocks. It’s been my experience that people who advocate for fare zones tend not to understand how finance works.

Very, very few parts of the TTC ever come close to profitability. We’re basically only talking about the subway lines, a few extremely busy streetcar lines, and shuttle buses. (The Airport Rocket, the York University Rocket, etc: routes with almost no stops where virtually every passenger is riding from terminal to terminal.)

The most expensive part of the TTC, conversely, is those buses which have to stop every two blocks and run half-full and take forever to get anywhere. It’s not an efficient use of fuel or staff resources, and such a route requires just as much investment in maintenance and infrastructure as one which could be carrying a full load of passengers a much greater distance.

If you want the TTC to be cost-effective, you actually want to strongly incentivize higher-order transport. You don’t want passengers transferring from bus to bus to bus (or only riding a bus two stops): you want as many passengers as possible on subways, streetcars, LRT, BRT and express buses, and as few as possible on local routes.

As a result, counter-intuitively, systems which encourage short trips actually underperform financially (all those half-full buses stopping every block and a half…), while systems which encourage longer-distance trips (provided this distance is travelled on higher-order transit) do better.

Fare zones and paying per kilometre actually create perverse incentives. If anything, you should be paying MORE for the convenience of only needing to travel two blocks.

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]]> By: tp http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44226 tp Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:02:50 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44226 There are reasons why zone fare isn't implemented. The first reason is that most trips are done from the outer city to the inner city and back, and within the inner city. The outer city is not as well served as the inner city. The core has better denser and more frequent TTC service. So the logic is that the long out-in in-out trips pay $3 for the distance, and the short core trips pay $3 for the better service. Add to the fact that many people who commute with the TTC for more than an hour are working poor, and this seems fair to me (and I live downtown and do short TTC commutes). Another reason is that implementing a zone fare system requires a much needed modernization of the paying fare system, and that simply hasn't been a high priority for the TTC. With the full adoption of the Presto card, that might change. There are reasons why zone fare isn’t implemented.
The first reason is that most trips are done from the outer city to the inner city and back, and within the inner city. The outer city is not as well served as the inner city. The core has better denser and more frequent TTC service. So the logic is that the long out-in in-out trips pay $3 for the distance, and the short core trips pay $3 for the better service. Add to the fact that many people who commute with the TTC for more than an hour are working poor, and this seems fair to me (and I live downtown and do short TTC commutes).
Another reason is that implementing a zone fare system requires a much needed modernization of the paying fare system, and that simply hasn’t been a high priority for the TTC. With the full adoption of the Presto card, that might change.

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]]> By: Austin http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44225 Austin Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:24:48 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44225 As the article says...this is what LA did and people voted for it. The only danger I see with referendums is that unfortunately naysayers are more vocal/active than those who agree to whatever proposal is being made. The saying goes that one person saying 'no' speaks louder than 10 people saying 'yes'. So it's very important that if a referendum happens, that the facts are clear and it be made abundantly clear that everyone affected needs to come out and vote. As the article says…this is what LA did and people voted for it.

The only danger I see with referendums is that unfortunately naysayers are more vocal/active than those who agree to whatever proposal is being made. The saying goes that one person saying ‘no’ speaks louder than 10 people saying ‘yes’. So it’s very important that if a referendum happens, that the facts are clear and it be made abundantly clear that everyone affected needs to come out and vote.

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]]> By: Josh http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44223 Josh Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:44:14 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44223 13 billion dollars a year. That's how much more Toronto gives to the Province than it receives in funding. How about, even just for one year, Toronto decides to keep the money it generates, and use it on transit? $13 billion buys a lot of subway track. 13 billion dollars a year. That’s how much more Toronto gives to the Province than it receives in funding. How about, even just for one year, Toronto decides to keep the money it generates, and use it on transit? $13 billion buys a lot of subway track.

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]]> By: Lorraine http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44214 Lorraine Thu, 24 Jan 2013 03:33:06 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44214 Toronto needs a zone fare system. It's ridiculous that it costs $3.00 to go 2 blocks, and the same $3.00 to ride from one end of the system to the other. I'm sure more people would take short rides if each short ride was cheaper. My mom said that they had zone fares in the 60s, that when they reached the end of a zone, people had to put in another fare and many people balked and tried to get out of it. I talked to Howard Moscoe once on CFRB and he brought up this scenario as an argument against zone fares, "over my dead body" and they hung up on me. However in Vancouver, the ticket carries the info about which zones you have paid to travel within, it's taken care of with the magnetic strip. The TTC is way behind, technology-wise. Toronto needs a zone fare system.

It’s ridiculous that it costs $3.00 to go 2 blocks, and the same $3.00 to ride from one end of the system to the other.

I’m sure more people would take short rides if each short ride was cheaper.

My mom said that they had zone fares in the 60s, that when they reached the end of a zone, people had to put in another fare and many people balked and tried to get out of it. I talked to Howard Moscoe once on CFRB and he brought up this scenario as an argument against zone fares, “over my dead body” and they hung up on me.

However in Vancouver, the ticket carries the info about which zones you have paid to travel within, it’s taken care of with the magnetic strip.

The TTC is way behind, technology-wise.

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]]> By: LaryOly http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/#comment-44212 LaryOly Thu, 24 Jan 2013 02:40:41 +0000 http://www.thegridto.com/?p=120346#comment-44212 Toronto needs to study what London, England has done to successfully fund its transit. The smartest thing London did was to introduce a Congestion Zone & a Congestion Charge. Central London used to suffer from permanent gridlock---like the permanent gridlock we have here. The Congestion Zone & Charge (£10 per day) has made drivers think twice about whether or not they really need to drive into the city core. Result: Gridlock has been greatly reduced, even at peak times of the day. And the money raised has gone to fund the upkeep & expansion of the transit system. Most of the cars I see in downtown Toronto are all single-occupant vehicles. And maybe 20% (at most) of those drivers actually need to drive in the city. If all those drivers, alone in their cars, needlessly plugging up our streets, had to pay $10 a day to do that, we'd see the same results as London has. But a proven way to get a lot less gridlock, and a lot more money for public transit, just makes way too much sense for our current bunch of buffoons at City Hall to even consider. Yet more proof that stamping your tiny foot and proclaiming, "This is a world-class city!" will never make you a real world-class city, if you continue acting like a little hick-town. Toronto needs to study what London, England has done to successfully fund its transit.

The smartest thing London did was to introduce a Congestion Zone & a Congestion Charge. Central London used to suffer from permanent gridlock—like the permanent gridlock we have here.

The Congestion Zone & Charge (£10 per day) has made drivers think twice about whether or not they really need to drive into the city core.

Result: Gridlock has been greatly reduced, even at peak times of the day. And the money raised has gone to fund the upkeep & expansion of the transit system.

Most of the cars I see in downtown Toronto are all single-occupant vehicles. And maybe 20% (at most) of those drivers actually need to drive in the city. If all those drivers, alone in their cars, needlessly plugging up our streets, had to pay $10 a day to do that, we’d see the same results as London has.

But a proven way to get a lot less gridlock, and a lot more money for public transit, just makes way too much sense for our current bunch of buffoons at City Hall to even consider.

Yet more proof that stamping your tiny foot and proclaiming, “This is a world-class city!” will never make you a real world-class city, if you continue acting like a little hick-town.

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